What men don't say: The grief & glory or raising an autistic son

WEBVTT

00:01.853 --> 00:07.403
[SPEAKER_00]: Hello and welcome to another episode of Beyond the Spectrum, every age, every need.

00:08.084 --> 00:13.934
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm your host, Sean Francis, and I'm joined by my partner in crime and thrive, my cousin Maurice McDavid.

00:15.356 --> 00:16.038
[SPEAKER_00]: Hello, everybody.

00:16.979 --> 00:20.385
[SPEAKER_00]: And today we're gonna just be talking about

00:20.838 --> 00:23.964
[SPEAKER_00]: variety of things from a dad's perspective.

00:24.786 --> 00:28.594
[SPEAKER_00]: Before we get started, I want to thank our partners Billy Footwear.

00:29.436 --> 00:34.526
[SPEAKER_00]: They are makers of adaptable footwear, adaptable footwear, find adaptable footwear for any and everyone.

00:34.586 --> 00:37.672
[SPEAKER_00]: The story of the founder Billy Price is one that is incredible.

00:37.732 --> 00:40.939
[SPEAKER_00]: Billy became a

00:40.919 --> 00:57.342
[SPEAKER_00]: He became paralyzed and needed to learn how to do everything for himself all over again, and he was able to do that with the exception of putting his shoes on a prototype was built Billy Footwear was born and they've sold more than a million per cent impact of the lives of many people and if you

00:57.322 --> 01:03.153
[SPEAKER_00]: click on the link in the show notes, you will find that you will get 10% off your final purchase.

01:03.734 --> 01:07.801
[SPEAKER_00]: We also want to encourage you to join us for our bi-weekly man's group known as the DIN.

01:08.222 --> 01:09.324
[SPEAKER_00]: We have a conversation.

01:09.364 --> 01:12.229
[SPEAKER_00]: It is a support group for men.

01:12.530 --> 01:16.697
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll say when I was offered an opportunity to be a part of a support group,

01:16.677 --> 01:17.218
[SPEAKER_00]: for men.

01:17.939 --> 01:27.936
[SPEAKER_00]: And I thought when I thought of a men's group, I thought these are guys that sit around all day, John and figure out around a campfire who can push out a beard before this and who as the biggest kill.

01:28.277 --> 01:28.838
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not me.

01:29.499 --> 01:32.003
[SPEAKER_00]: But I realize over a period of time.

01:32.573 --> 01:40.185
[SPEAKER_00]: that men are not encouraged to be open about anything about that which we are uncertain of.

01:40.205 --> 01:47.196
[SPEAKER_00]: And if that's true with men period, it applies 10 times more so to those of us who are caregivers.

01:47.397 --> 01:51.443
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're going to jump right into it, welcome to be on at the spectrum.

02:10.863 --> 02:12.129
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, all right, all right, all right.

02:12.591 --> 02:16.208
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's kind of get just right into it.

02:17.293 --> 02:19.523
[SPEAKER_00]: More recent I were talking off camera, we were saying.

02:19.908 --> 02:28.237
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, the previous show that I had was just two dads, which I host with Brian Altonian, we started talking about things from a dad's perspective.

02:28.257 --> 02:30.860
[SPEAKER_00]: And it seems like you can almost never run out of that.

02:30.880 --> 02:46.557
[SPEAKER_00]: And with those topics that talk about around that, but Maurice and everything earlier, we were saying, you know, when you find out that you and your significant other are about to become parents, I don't know if it's different for women, but I don't think you're thinking about

02:47.127 --> 02:52.774
[SPEAKER_00]: what it means to become a parent from a dad's perspective, versus a woman's or anything like that.

02:53.195 --> 03:00.103
[SPEAKER_00]: But over time, you gain some insight in some of those things come to light.

03:00.223 --> 03:08.934
[SPEAKER_00]: And I also think there's got to be a difference between being a parent to a son versus a daughter.

03:09.435 --> 03:16.003
[SPEAKER_00]: So my son, Elijah, is 19, and was diagnosed with autism at the age of three.

03:16.473 --> 03:20.119
[SPEAKER_02]: 23, you just turn 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23.

03:20.860 --> 03:24.646
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so that's enough time to look back upon.

03:25.788 --> 03:37.266
[SPEAKER_00]: With that in mind, tell me about what you think is dad specific to being a caregiver to one with autism or a special need.

03:38.579 --> 04:03.726
[SPEAKER_02]: Honestly, I think those lines get really quite blurred, I think traditionally, you know, dads are doing the sports thing and dads are the authority and the house thing and the disciplinarians and some of those stereotypical roles for dads, but I think for me and my

04:04.145 --> 04:05.607
[SPEAKER_02]: absolutely blurred.

04:05.707 --> 04:14.257
[SPEAKER_02]: It was just like, what is my son need, whether that traditionally fell on the male side of the responsibilities or the female side of the responsible.

04:14.618 --> 04:29.275
[SPEAKER_02]: If there is such a thing, it was just like, well, here's an individual that needs my care, that needs my love,

04:30.031 --> 04:35.399
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, while I was pregnant with Isaac thinking about, you know, what's my role going to be as a dad, I was just excited.

04:35.519 --> 04:37.122
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's my youngest of five.

04:37.182 --> 04:39.325
[SPEAKER_02]: So I had a bunch of kids.

04:40.127 --> 04:41.108
[SPEAKER_02]: He is my youngest.

04:41.949 --> 04:44.093
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I I love being a dad.

04:44.694 --> 04:45.795
[SPEAKER_02]: Why we ended up at five.

04:45.835 --> 04:54.148
[SPEAKER_02]: So I was just excited to add excited to add a phrase to add another one to the group.

04:54.635 --> 04:58.800
[SPEAKER_02]: Because at points I felt like we were overwhelmed, but I love kids.

04:58.820 --> 04:59.581
[SPEAKER_02]: I love being a dad.

04:59.622 --> 05:01.544
[SPEAKER_02]: So I was really excited about it.

05:01.604 --> 05:13.820
[SPEAKER_02]: But again, once his diagnosis became clear and the challenges that presented, it really did blur the lines for me about what my response to the list were and in character him versus my wife.

05:14.201 --> 05:19.107
[SPEAKER_02]: It kind of, I think you're race the lines is like, what does he need how and when and.

05:19.576 --> 05:25.984
[SPEAKER_02]: How do we as a team of best support, you know, his best care?

05:27.506 --> 05:48.132
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know, I think your situation in mind, the things that we have in common are I don't know if they're not typical because I, to be honest, just a busy doing what you do, living as you do, you don't know what takes place with most people these days,

05:48.584 --> 05:53.068
[SPEAKER_00]: But I know that, you know, for each of us, those lines were blurred.

05:53.088 --> 06:05.259
[SPEAKER_00]: And so for me, working in financial services as an independent contractor, I control my schedule and my wife, Laura worked on nine to five.

06:05.319 --> 06:12.165
[SPEAKER_00]: So I was the one that took him to therapy and had joined a mommy and me group where I was the only daddy in that group.

06:12.705 --> 06:18.490
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're definitely not thinking about blur lines,

06:19.330 --> 06:21.974
[SPEAKER_00]: For us, Laura had two daughters from her previous marriage.

06:22.114 --> 06:25.879
[SPEAKER_00]: He was our first child together.

06:25.939 --> 06:29.864
[SPEAKER_00]: And in your case, Isaac was your fifth.

06:30.065 --> 06:35.432
[SPEAKER_00]: The perspective has got to be different for someone who's having a child for the first time too.

06:35.572 --> 06:41.220
[SPEAKER_00]: So those things all play our role in each situation being different.

06:41.200 --> 06:58.332
[SPEAKER_00]: What would you say and I'm asking you this and wording it carefully because if I ask a question unless you have a situation that's completely different than my own, I ask the question of how I would answer it as well.

06:58.700 --> 07:17.080
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm trying to answer it as I ask you, but what do you think are some of the things or the first thing that comes to mind that is different or challenging for a dad to a young adult with special needs versus a mom?

07:19.743 --> 07:26.640
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, for a dad to, um, a son with special needs or just a child with special needs, um, both are both.

07:26.660 --> 07:27.161
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

07:27.181 --> 07:30.168
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, what is different for a dad.

07:31.211 --> 07:34.037
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, hmm.

07:34.057 --> 07:37.245
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, that kind of put me on a spot like what is different.

07:37.630 --> 07:39.372
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

07:39.792 --> 07:40.553
[SPEAKER_00]: I can make it easy.

07:40.633 --> 08:06.878
[SPEAKER_00]: I can make it easy for you to give your answer first if you have one because I was I do you know sometimes it's you know I say this so much there's a couple of people I quote often and Einstein is one of them which is the same that you can't solve a problem at the same level of consciousness and which it occurs so the problem is here for those those that are actually watching this episode on the YouTube channel versus hearing it

08:07.516 --> 08:08.157
[SPEAKER_00]: because it's yours.

08:09.339 --> 08:16.429
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're not able to step outside of that dot or circle, you don't gain perspective, and we just gave an example of how things can be complicated.

08:16.469 --> 08:19.614
[SPEAKER_00]: We talked about how the appreciation we have for our group, the den.

08:20.475 --> 08:24.060
[SPEAKER_00]: That group was created as a result of that problem.

08:24.080 --> 08:26.724
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's very common, you know?

08:27.165 --> 08:37.320
[SPEAKER_00]: So I will go first and say that the thing that is different

08:38.279 --> 08:50.032
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the expression of any form of uncertainty, not having the answers, because society expects a man to fix it.

08:50.352 --> 09:08.151
[SPEAKER_00]: And then of course, the type of man that you are is dictated by the love language of the man that raises you, if there's a man in your life that raises you, if there's one that's absent, that dictates the love language, too, or the lack they're of.

09:08.975 --> 09:12.440
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, I may be typical, I may be a typical, I don't know.

09:13.662 --> 09:23.015
[SPEAKER_02]: My dad was there physically, but he was not really there emotionally, he worked a lot.

09:23.515 --> 09:25.759
[SPEAKER_02]: And when he was home, he watched television.

09:26.299 --> 09:28.202
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't blame him.

09:28.222 --> 09:30.165
[SPEAKER_02]: I have a great relationship with my dad.

09:30.185 --> 09:30.966
[SPEAKER_02]: I love him now.

09:31.146 --> 09:32.628
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm not going to even love him then.

09:32.668 --> 09:38.256
[SPEAKER_02]: But we have a great relationship now.

09:38.675 --> 09:56.218
[SPEAKER_02]: and especially when my wife became pregnant for the first time, I'm like, you know, I'm going to give my kids what I didn't get because, you know, I was a last key kid and and kind of forced to be very independent and take care of myself because both my parents worked and my dad was not very emotionally available.

09:56.318 --> 10:01.364
[SPEAKER_02]: So I kind of made this vow that my kids, I even said this and I hope this is inappropriate.

10:01.645 --> 10:05.830
[SPEAKER_02]: But other than breastfeeding, there's nothing

10:06.215 --> 10:09.500
[SPEAKER_02]: That was the one thing I realized I could not do, but the rest of it.

10:09.540 --> 10:10.722
[SPEAKER_02]: I was going to change diapers.

10:10.782 --> 10:12.644
[SPEAKER_02]: I was going to feed them.

10:12.704 --> 10:14.026
[SPEAKER_02]: I was going to clean up after them.

10:14.046 --> 10:15.308
[SPEAKER_02]: I was going to do whatever it took.

10:15.749 --> 10:17.371
[SPEAKER_02]: So they knew they were valued in love.

10:17.471 --> 10:24.381
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that was that was a vow out of my own pain out of my own experience that I didn't want my kids to live through.

10:24.882 --> 10:33.775
[SPEAKER_02]: So that probably set me up to, um, to even a part that time to take it on more than I should have because of.

10:34.109 --> 10:37.635
[SPEAKER_02]: because I have made that commitment somewhere deep inside myself.

10:38.457 --> 10:38.938
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what though?

10:38.978 --> 10:56.809
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to give you some grace that you, I wouldn't say you denied yourself, but I'm just going to give it to you because I don't know if you noticed the distinction you just said, you were going to, there wasn't anything that she was going to do or give that you weren't going to

10:57.127 --> 10:57.828
[SPEAKER_00]: give as well.

10:57.908 --> 10:59.992
[SPEAKER_00]: I forgot exactly how you said it.

11:00.032 --> 11:00.913
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll see it in the playback.

11:00.933 --> 11:05.681
[SPEAKER_00]: But you didn't imply that you can do anything that she can do.

11:06.122 --> 11:11.010
[SPEAKER_00]: You imply that you're willing to do anything other than nursing that she does.

11:11.911 --> 11:18.342
[SPEAKER_00]: And this one thing that that does, it displays your commitment to them.

11:19.233 --> 11:25.821
[SPEAKER_00]: to your children, it displays some commitment to her as well to give her some kind of respite.

11:26.402 --> 11:33.430
[SPEAKER_00]: But the other thing that it does is that it doesn't devalue what she's capable of uniquely doing and giving.

11:35.212 --> 11:35.733
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?

11:36.253 --> 11:45.865
[SPEAKER_02]: That's that's pretty special.

11:46.621 --> 11:47.682
[SPEAKER_02]: unique and special.

11:47.702 --> 11:49.665
[SPEAKER_02]: I think kids are miracles, and they're amazing.

11:49.745 --> 11:53.790
[SPEAKER_02]: And I just find great value on kids.

11:53.850 --> 11:55.091
[SPEAKER_02]: I love being around kids.

11:55.131 --> 11:55.972
[SPEAKER_02]: They crack me up.

11:56.933 --> 11:58.896
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, they're they're true to themselves.

11:59.096 --> 12:01.158
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, the world hasn't beat it out of them yet.

12:01.679 --> 12:13.253
[SPEAKER_02]: So like if I was going to do a job any other than the career I have now, I always want to kind of work at a boys and girls club and just run around with the kids and tell them they're valuable and tell them they're loved because that's

12:14.026 --> 12:17.372
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, kind of out of a pain that I think I experienced.

12:17.412 --> 12:19.516
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't feel particularly valued.

12:20.057 --> 12:29.032
[SPEAKER_02]: I kind of felt locked in like an annoyance and kind of an impediment to some of the things that my parents wanted to do or be or achieve.

12:29.072 --> 12:35.123
[SPEAKER_02]: Not that they didn't love me, but you know, and I could go into a lot of the reasons why I love them to death and realize,

12:35.609 --> 12:38.293
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, they work who they were out of their own experiences.

12:38.853 --> 12:45.843
[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't blame them in any way, but it did help shape how I was going to approach being a dad, which sure.

12:45.863 --> 12:45.963
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

12:45.983 --> 12:52.732
[SPEAKER_00]: But you just touched on two things, which is we'll talk about how much we love kids and kids are amazing.

12:52.813 --> 12:53.313
[SPEAKER_00]: Kids are that.

12:53.373 --> 12:59.101
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, the people, the adults of this earth, we're all kids, including us.

12:59.742 --> 12:59.842
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

12:59.862 --> 13:04.789
[SPEAKER_00]: So the way we say it, because they say that you should

13:05.157 --> 13:17.318
[SPEAKER_00]: you say and how you spell because that's where they call it a spell because your words mean things and we tend to act as though once you're no longer a child some of that magic is gone.

13:17.619 --> 13:21.666
[SPEAKER_00]: And unfortunately the world convinced you or convinces you of that also.

13:21.746 --> 13:25.933
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I made a post yesterday that I got this notion.

13:26.335 --> 13:38.303
[SPEAKER_00]: from something else that I saw which was you know I said if you if anybody watching this post thinks that they're gonna grow up one day and be somebody you got it all wrong you're dead wrong

13:38.755 --> 13:41.940
[SPEAKER_00]: Because you already are somebody and you're probably wore before you even got here.

13:41.960 --> 13:43.623
[SPEAKER_00]: The rest of the world just doesn't know it yet.

13:44.224 --> 13:45.526
[SPEAKER_00]: And you probably forget it.

13:46.187 --> 13:48.791
[SPEAKER_00]: And that was as much for me as it is anybody else.

13:49.632 --> 13:52.897
[SPEAKER_00]: We come into this world as close to perfect as we're ever going to be.

13:52.937 --> 13:59.447
[SPEAKER_00]: And that goes back to the other thing I often say, which is, you know, that's not mine.

13:59.507 --> 14:01.270
[SPEAKER_00]: I got that from,

14:01.250 --> 14:09.357
[SPEAKER_00]: Michael Jackson of all people, which just said, you know, we should be more child-like and less child-ish because we have no balance in our curiosity as children.

14:10.518 --> 14:12.640
[SPEAKER_00]: That gets changed as we get, as we get older.

14:13.481 --> 14:16.384
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about the idea, you and I talked about this earlier.

14:16.404 --> 14:28.995
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a shift from architect to consultant, because the other thing that takes places, you know, you're building the world that

14:30.224 --> 14:33.635
[SPEAKER_00]: your child is going to and have it immediately anyway.

14:34.397 --> 14:39.593
[SPEAKER_00]: And as they become teenagers, now you're a little bit more.

14:40.113 --> 14:51.508
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, in most cases, with their removal of special needs, you go from architect to consultant because you're consulting them because they have an opportunity to go out into the world on their own.

14:52.029 --> 15:00.780
[SPEAKER_00]: And the things that they typically do is, you know, an after school job, driving, doing things with their friends socially.

15:00.840 --> 15:08.230
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, depending on the diagnosis, and that's the one thing that your son and mine share is that,

15:08.648 --> 15:10.170
[SPEAKER_00]: that's not part of their existence.

15:10.190 --> 15:26.751
[SPEAKER_00]: So the matter which we become consultants is just a little different and you're walking a tight road between, I don't want to say hope and fear, but on one hand, you're like, like, I'm, we try to be very conscious of what we say and what we put out.

15:27.152 --> 15:27.973
[SPEAKER_00]: And

15:27.953 --> 15:29.536
[SPEAKER_00]: remain open to all possibilities.

15:30.157 --> 15:39.772
[SPEAKER_00]: So rather than say he'll never do such and such or he can't do such and such, we'll be very conscious to say he does not do this thing at this time.

15:40.153 --> 15:40.373
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

15:40.534 --> 15:46.724
[SPEAKER_00]: And so there's this awkward dance between objective reality and fantasy.

15:47.044 --> 15:52.493
[SPEAKER_00]: And I know for some parents, you know, it's sheer fantasy where there, you know,

15:52.912 --> 16:05.946
[SPEAKER_00]: at one end of the spectrum, the fantasy is that they'll never do so and so and they don't do anything outside of what they know or they have this unrealistic hope as to maybe what it is that they'll do really put them in a dangerous situation.

16:07.488 --> 16:19.341
[SPEAKER_00]: What you thought on that and that how do you kind of how do you balance that dance and does the way you do that differ from the way your wife Lawrence might approach it.

16:21.987 --> 16:23.349
[SPEAKER_02]: There's definitely a different stare.

16:23.430 --> 16:37.434
[SPEAKER_02]: I think, I'm too more wife than I, I think that, you know, you know, you picture the dad who takes the kid rolls them way up in the air and catches them and throws them way up in the air in the mom's.

16:37.454 --> 16:38.456
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, oh my god, don't do that.

16:38.496 --> 16:40.860
[SPEAKER_02]: The dad's are like, it's safe, we're having fun.

16:40.880 --> 16:43.505
[SPEAKER_02]: I think I think it stays like that.

16:43.545 --> 16:46.510
[SPEAKER_02]: At least my experience is it stays like that as they get older.

16:46.743 --> 16:51.909
[SPEAKER_02]: is I'm a little in this is with my son Isaac as well as the rest of my kids.

16:52.510 --> 16:54.693
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm a little more freehanded with them.

16:54.713 --> 17:11.974
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm I'm I'm I'm more willing to let them walk on the edge and take some of those risks and now for my adult kids because Isaac again is my youngest and my kids are in their

17:12.190 --> 17:15.894
[SPEAKER_02]: And remind them forever, I am here to support you.

17:15.974 --> 17:16.475
[SPEAKER_02]: I love you.

17:16.575 --> 17:17.716
[SPEAKER_02]: I've always out your back.

17:18.317 --> 17:20.980
[SPEAKER_02]: But I'm not the architect of your show anymore.

17:21.000 --> 17:23.002
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't want to be the architect of your show anymore.

17:23.022 --> 17:24.524
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't have energy for that, right?

17:25.825 --> 17:31.311
[SPEAKER_02]: With Isaac, of course, it's different because he doesn't have some of the tools to become completely independent.

17:33.834 --> 17:39.480
[SPEAKER_02]: But I still want him to have those opportunities

17:39.983 --> 17:48.811
[SPEAKER_02]: push boundaries for himself and so there are ways that I love, you know, there's, there's a park we go to that really.

17:50.052 --> 17:57.738
[SPEAKER_02]: He gets on a scooter and he just goes crazy and I let him, you know, if you've got kids with autism, you know, a lot of them stem and make noise.

17:58.139 --> 18:00.821
[SPEAKER_02]: So then he's very free and he looks free.

18:00.881 --> 18:09.889
[SPEAKER_02]: He's scooting along and he's making his noise and he's just having a blast

18:10.105 --> 18:14.750
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's in smaller steps, right?

18:14.770 --> 18:33.852
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not like the rest of my kids that I want to see him be on his own and take on some of these challenges and, you know, maybe interact with the public in a way where I'm not Batman on his shoulders like, you know, you know,

18:34.085 --> 18:37.609
[SPEAKER_02]: preventing anything awkward or uncomfortable from happening.

18:37.629 --> 18:43.775
[SPEAKER_02]: So there, I think there's a pronounced difference between how my wife approaches it and I approach it.

18:44.536 --> 18:48.940
[SPEAKER_02]: And that can cause, that can cause issues between the two of us sometimes.

18:48.980 --> 18:50.762
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, you know, I don't do it.

18:50.782 --> 18:51.303
[SPEAKER_00]: And it does.

18:51.583 --> 18:52.504
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly.

18:52.524 --> 18:58.590
[SPEAKER_02]: And the reason I said that is because a couple days ago, we ran into one of the situations where I was, uh,

18:58.908 --> 19:07.197
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't perceive the issue and she felt it was an issue in that constant issue, so I just kind of would like to do it right.

19:08.358 --> 19:29.193
[SPEAKER_00]: It is, and it's a totally different topic, which we'll touch on to another episode, between you, myself, and our good friend, Kaho, Susanna, we talked about that, which is, that is the very reason why the divorce rate in our community is so high, because those things take place.

19:29.513 --> 19:34.602
[SPEAKER_00]: And Laura and I go through the same thing where I'm like, just sometimes,

19:36.252 --> 19:51.225
[SPEAKER_00]: Because of my lack of patience, at times, she'll just be in protection mode about something he says or does where I don't think at the given moment, it was necessary at all because there's nothing to protect.

19:51.585 --> 20:06.158
[SPEAKER_00]: But this has been just as many time when that is needed because I haven't been the most patient in terms of trying to figure out what he's trying to communicate

20:08.146 --> 20:10.289
[SPEAKER_00]: How do you allow them to make his mistakes?

20:10.309 --> 20:15.998
[SPEAKER_00]: I had a mentor in business that talked about in terms of leading people.

20:16.379 --> 20:19.684
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, you've got, sometimes you've got to let the kids you've got to let people break things.

20:19.704 --> 20:22.328
[SPEAKER_00]: You've got to let them break things so that they know not what to break.

20:22.348 --> 20:27.016
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't just have everything protected and bull-arab.

20:28.999 --> 20:32.845
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'll answer that as I ask it as you think about it.

20:32.885 --> 20:34.828
[SPEAKER_00]: For me, it would be the things that

20:35.163 --> 20:36.125
[SPEAKER_00]: he asks for.

20:36.165 --> 20:40.432
[SPEAKER_00]: Because right now he's going through a thing where he's equipped to say, you know, a need your help, a need your help.

20:40.592 --> 20:47.103
[SPEAKER_00]: And then for me, what I have to do is I have to assess whether or not I have something you really need to help with.

20:48.044 --> 20:54.595
[SPEAKER_00]: And if he doesn't, or if it's something if it's something he can figure out, you're like, I know, you got it, you can figure that out.

20:54.615 --> 20:56.378
[SPEAKER_00]: What in terms of the good cut back up?

20:58.113 --> 20:59.896
[SPEAKER_00]: If Laura's at home, what do he'll do?

20:59.957 --> 21:03.704
[SPEAKER_00]: And now I think I told you he's going through this phase where he calls a buyer first name.

21:04.245 --> 21:07.471
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll go, who will go daddy and almost irritate him, you know?

21:08.192 --> 21:10.417
[SPEAKER_00]: But if I say, you know, you can do it.

21:10.437 --> 21:13.202
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll go, Laura, Laura, and go,

21:13.182 --> 21:16.225
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, because then what he'll do is tell her that he needs help.

21:16.245 --> 21:18.487
[SPEAKER_00]: And it might be with something that he can do on his own.

21:18.527 --> 21:35.124
[SPEAKER_00]: Like even if it's picking up something and taking it down stairs or whatever, like a dish or something, because there's one thing to ask, you know, which he'll do, but other times they'll say, I need your help because he's quick to do that rather than try it.

21:36.325 --> 21:37.286
[SPEAKER_00]: You can figure it out.

21:37.346 --> 21:37.927
[SPEAKER_00]: You can figure it out.

21:37.947 --> 21:39.088
[SPEAKER_00]: We were at

21:39.203 --> 21:52.062
[SPEAKER_00]: We were in the store the other day, we were at Costco and there was something we were getting out of the freezer section and he's like an easier help and I didn't get impatient I understood that he really thought that he needed my help to take it out of the freezer.

21:52.542 --> 22:01.415
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, no, no, you got it because it was a little heavy, but it was also cold, right, so from the sensory standpoint, so the freezer is here.

22:01.455 --> 22:04.520
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're looking at the show with us on video, the freezer is here.

22:05.120 --> 22:06.883
[SPEAKER_00]: He's here and I'm here.

22:06.923 --> 22:08.265
[SPEAKER_00]: He's looking at me like,

22:08.903 --> 22:33.173
[SPEAKER_00]: and like dude and I'm like no you got it you got it just and he finally gets it out and he's holding it with his fingertips because it's freezing cold and he put it in the car and like see you did that you got it and he's like yeah yeah all right so you just never know you know yeah I mean I'm always amazed by some of the very similar behavior

22:41.422 --> 22:43.705
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I'm back.

22:44.166 --> 22:44.566
[SPEAKER_02]: You OK?

22:45.067 --> 22:46.189
[SPEAKER_02]: All right.

22:46.209 --> 22:52.417
[SPEAKER_02]: So like I said, I'm always cracking up by the similarities is Isaac.

22:52.537 --> 22:56.863
[SPEAKER_02]: If he wants something, for example, he's got a massive video collection.

22:57.384 --> 23:02.211
[SPEAKER_02]: So we've put a bunch of them in boxes in the garage because he can't even keep them all in his room.

23:03.773 --> 23:06.917
[SPEAKER_02]: And if he gets a bug, he will go tear that garage apart.

23:06.957 --> 23:11.243
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, moving boxes, furniture.

23:11.645 --> 23:13.607
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, hey, but help me bring a bag of gross.

23:13.627 --> 23:15.249
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, heavy, heavy.

23:15.289 --> 23:19.655
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, oh my gosh, you have no idea what that does for me.

23:19.735 --> 23:26.043
[SPEAKER_00]: Because right now, he's going through a thing where, if we go to the store, because his things he'll pick out that he wants.

23:26.343 --> 23:30.328
[SPEAKER_00]: He's got a thing with brochures now of anime for any and every kind.

23:30.408 --> 23:31.329
[SPEAKER_00]: You go to the grocery store.

23:31.369 --> 23:35.274
[SPEAKER_00]: He goes to the fish counter, the butcher, and gets the recipe stuff.

23:35.294 --> 23:36.575
[SPEAKER_00]: Not that he's going to cook any of those stuff.

23:36.636 --> 23:38.698
[SPEAKER_00]: They'll get any and everything that he can.

23:38.678 --> 23:43.213
[SPEAKER_00]: job applications or go to the bank in there or go to the banking window or whatever.

23:44.080 --> 23:44.402
[SPEAKER_00]: And

23:45.631 --> 23:51.717
[SPEAKER_00]: If, let's say we're coming from school, if he's got his backpack, I'll tell him, we'll put those things in your backpack, then there's less things to carry.

23:52.398 --> 23:54.460
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'll be like, I do not want, I don't want it.

23:54.480 --> 23:55.681
[SPEAKER_00]: He'll tell you what he doesn't want to do.

23:56.202 --> 23:58.224
[SPEAKER_00]: Like he's Sam and I am in green eggs and ham.

23:58.264 --> 23:59.104
[SPEAKER_00]: I do not want to do that.

23:59.205 --> 24:00.466
[SPEAKER_00]: I will not, I do not want to do that.

24:01.066 --> 24:02.628
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, all right.

24:02.648 --> 24:10.956
[SPEAKER_00]: So then when you get out of the car, especially if you've gotten a bunch of items, he loves picking up the items and putting stuff in the car and going down the grocery list and everything.

24:11.557 --> 24:12.718
[SPEAKER_00]: But when you get home,

24:13.357 --> 24:42.013
[SPEAKER_00]: he almost runs out like his underwear on iron fire and gets to the front door like nope nope like he's and then he won't come back down and help me I'm like you know what when I'm making the stops if you're not helping me carry those things in man I'm not working for you dude yeah so I can relate to that yeah that's like the key uh all said he doesn't have the strength for the things you asked to do but man he can move but he can move furniture to get it what he wants let's a crack out but anyway so he says he's as heavy

24:42.263 --> 24:55.021
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, he'll go or he just makes like an irritated sound like he doesn't really want to, right, or he brings a bag in and then I have to tell him we're not done go back outside because he'll just I got my one bag.

24:55.061 --> 24:55.482
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm good.

24:55.522 --> 24:56.924
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like, uh, right.

24:57.264 --> 25:00.329
[SPEAKER_02]: So, um, you know, I get what we all do that right there.

25:00.369 --> 25:05.095
[SPEAKER_02]: Things we want to do and things we don't want to do and if we can slide out and not have to do it and we slide out.

25:05.115 --> 25:10.583
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't do it.

25:11.035 --> 25:22.393
[SPEAKER_02]: if they're he's not so slick at it like my other kids, you know, I come home with a big thing or groceries and unless I call them down they didn't realize I got home with the grocery's right.

25:22.514 --> 25:22.935
[SPEAKER_02]: So

25:23.388 --> 25:28.215
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, he's no different, but it's a little less slick about it.

25:28.455 --> 25:29.116
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess that's the way.

25:29.136 --> 25:30.838
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.

25:30.858 --> 25:37.908
[SPEAKER_00]: Going back to differentiating men and women, that's in terms, and the purpose, again, for the group.

25:38.108 --> 25:43.035
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I want to eventually talk about the group some, because I want people to know about that.

25:43.756 --> 25:48.923
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think the way the group operates is

25:49.966 --> 25:53.071
[SPEAKER_00]: But then, yeah, our group, yeah, the dead.

25:53.131 --> 26:00.544
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it epitomizes the need for it because we've got twice as many members as we do attendees on calls.

26:00.845 --> 26:05.353
[SPEAKER_00]: And when I created it, the whole idea was to let people know that it's for adults.

26:05.373 --> 26:07.076
[SPEAKER_00]: So nobody's going to be like, hey, where are you?

26:07.256 --> 26:08.318
[SPEAKER_00]: Why did you get on the call?

26:08.959 --> 26:09.059
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

26:09.079 --> 26:10.542
[SPEAKER_00]: It's for them to know that it's there.

26:10.602 --> 26:11.143
[SPEAKER_00]: They show up.

26:11.203 --> 26:12.205
[SPEAKER_00]: They do if they don't, they don't.

26:12.806 --> 26:12.926
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

26:13.086 --> 26:14.168
[SPEAKER_00]: With this more.

26:14.452 --> 26:18.859
[SPEAKER_00]: members than they are regular attendees on the calls.

26:18.879 --> 26:19.120
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

26:19.520 --> 26:33.203
[SPEAKER_00]: So tell me if you will, what do you think are some of the fears from your perspective that we as men have or things that we're not comfortable talking about?

26:35.466 --> 26:40.695
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, you know, most of us default into needing to have the answers.

26:41.350 --> 26:42.192
[SPEAKER_02]: for whatever.

26:42.693 --> 26:47.365
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I went and expressed this frustration, you know, we automatically how do we fix that?

26:47.405 --> 26:49.310
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's like, it's not about fixing, right?

26:49.832 --> 26:58.313
[SPEAKER_02]: So that whole strength, capability, proficiency, efficiency, all those kinds of things,

26:58.715 --> 27:12.083
[SPEAKER_02]: are supposed to be or we have the usually you should be on us about those kind of things and then when it comes to, you know, working with a neurodivergent child there.

27:12.586 --> 27:17.797
[SPEAKER_02]: the should bees and got to bees go away because you just don't have control over that.

27:17.897 --> 27:23.228
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think men are a lot less comfortable in that space.

27:23.949 --> 27:25.172
[SPEAKER_02]: So we avoid it.

27:26.575 --> 27:31.084
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't want to appear to not have answers or be incompetent.

27:31.418 --> 27:41.353
[SPEAKER_02]: or even not, you know, be not, appear not caring because I know for myself things just don't occur to me that occur for my wife, but my brain doesn't work like hers does.

27:41.974 --> 27:44.558
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I'm often caught like, ooh, I didn't even think about that.

27:45.539 --> 27:50.367
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's an uncomfortable space for me because that sometimes they're shame like I should have thought about that.

27:50.467 --> 27:52.009
[SPEAKER_02]: Why did I not see that?

27:52.664 --> 27:57.570
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think we get in these spaces, and they are safe spaces.

27:57.590 --> 27:59.292
[SPEAKER_02]: So let me convince any man who's on here.

27:59.712 --> 28:04.879
[SPEAKER_02]: You will not feel judged in any way shape or form if you join the den, because it's not about that.

28:05.499 --> 28:13.188
[SPEAKER_02]: We all come stumbling in the room like, you know, I need oxygen, because I don't, I'm not getting this right.

28:13.248 --> 28:14.550
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think I'm getting this right.

28:15.471 --> 28:17.774
[SPEAKER_02]: I, I just want to know I'm not alone.

28:18.975 --> 28:20.477
[SPEAKER_02]: And that for me has been a

28:20.997 --> 28:28.985
[SPEAKER_02]: a huge part of why I'm a regular attendee at the end because I just need that breath of oxygen.

28:29.626 --> 28:40.136
[SPEAKER_02]: I need that encouragement that some of the behaviors I'm frustrated with about my son, Sean as well, and some of the other guys have an experience exact same thing.

28:40.277 --> 28:42.599
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's not me, it's not my son.

28:42.659 --> 28:45.722
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just a reality in

28:46.107 --> 28:52.826
[SPEAKER_02]: a parental relationship with your kids, whether they be neurotypical or neurodivergent.

28:53.588 --> 28:58.783
[SPEAKER_02]: And the other thing I love about, then, is that

28:59.675 --> 29:15.450
[SPEAKER_02]: I get reminded that this is typical behavior for my son's age, because a lot of times we who are caregivers who have special needs kids think this behavior is tied just to their diagnosis and we forget, no, that's what my other kid did at that age and it's like, oh, oh, yeah, that's right.

29:15.950 --> 29:28.062
[SPEAKER_02]: So I. I do understand the resistance because it does require a level of vulnerability and that's just not.

29:28.767 --> 29:43.535
[SPEAKER_02]: something we're taught as boys, and then young adults and young men, we're not taught that vulnerability is okay, and you're valuable, so men really struggle to place themselves in those environments.

29:43.635 --> 29:46.801
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's what I've seen.

29:46.821 --> 29:50.488
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I've been involved in other men's groups as well, it's same thing.

29:51.211 --> 30:06.057
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's funny because I was thinking just last night I was thinking about my relationship with my dad which is fantastic and I think we talked about on the previous episode where we talked about what does it mean to be a man?

30:06.938 --> 30:14.451
[SPEAKER_00]: I was saying that my dad was the son of from everything that I remember or that I've been told because I don't have any memory of my paternal

30:14.431 --> 30:16.194
[SPEAKER_00]: grandfather.

30:16.855 --> 30:18.558
[SPEAKER_00]: I was a very young when he passed away.

30:19.019 --> 30:21.583
[SPEAKER_00]: Everything I was told, he was a man's a man.

30:23.225 --> 30:26.371
[SPEAKER_00]: He was independently successful in him and my grandmother.

30:26.391 --> 30:28.374
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that he did not finish high school.

30:28.394 --> 30:38.711
[SPEAKER_00]: He never made it to high school, but that didn't change the fact that he impacted people's lives with businesses and contributions to the local community and the Virgin Islands many, many times over some over which you've seen.

30:40.434 --> 30:41.215
[SPEAKER_00]: But,

30:41.195 --> 30:49.148
[SPEAKER_00]: I will say that while my dad was not the most touchy feeling, he was affectionate in terms of rough housing and things like that.

30:49.769 --> 30:54.536
[SPEAKER_00]: But I have never once, I am 61 years old.

30:55.238 --> 30:56.860
[SPEAKER_00]: I have never seen my father cry.

30:57.381 --> 31:01.588
[SPEAKER_00]: And he told me that when his father passed away, he didn't cry.

31:02.549 --> 31:07.978
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's never able to ask

31:08.836 --> 31:16.045
[SPEAKER_00]: In terms of vulnerability and what you pass on, I'll ask a question and I'll answer it, then let you do it.

31:17.527 --> 31:23.737
[SPEAKER_00]: And the question is, do you tell your sons, you know, it's okay to cry, it's okay to show your emotions?

31:24.117 --> 31:25.720
[SPEAKER_00]: Would you show them?

31:26.341 --> 31:40.463
[SPEAKER_00]: And for me, I like just my only biological child is you know my wife and I, Laura and I adopted my sister and I was four children, two boys and two girls and the Laura has her two daughters from her previous marriage.

31:40.443 --> 31:45.394
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've never had a conversation with them about the boys and they look, it's okay to cry.

31:45.955 --> 31:51.588
[SPEAKER_00]: Nor have I said, this is how you treat a woman, should you be lucky enough to find someone to spend the rest of your life with?

31:52.310 --> 31:56.639
[SPEAKER_00]: I've made jokes here and there and said something like, hey, if your wife is happy, you're happy.

31:56.739 --> 31:59.245
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, things along that line.

32:00.102 --> 32:12.578
[SPEAKER_00]: I show more than I tell and then I have wonder with Elijah how much of that example does he get for instance when we're out and about he he will rush to the door entering some place.

32:13.059 --> 32:27.898
[SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't notice stopping maybe let's somebody go first and I said you go ahead and let them go first especially if it's a lady let let always that lady go first I don't know much of that he gets so how much of that if you shown to Isaac

32:29.785 --> 32:34.512
[SPEAKER_00]: Or Jerry, Jeremy, who's neurotypical because he would be able to get what you tell him.

32:34.572 --> 32:35.734
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you tell them, show them?

32:35.915 --> 32:37.217
[SPEAKER_00]: Where does any of that come from?

32:37.237 --> 32:38.058
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not crying lately.

32:38.078 --> 32:38.839
[SPEAKER_02]: You're not crying, baby.

32:39.220 --> 32:40.842
[SPEAKER_02]: They say me cry a million times.

32:41.483 --> 32:57.328
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, so I think I model that emotional vulnerability and that forever, you know, sentimental movies will get me, you know, when people have passed in our family.

32:57.815 --> 33:06.423
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's, again, I didn't receive that when I was a kid, my dad was quite disconnected.

33:06.443 --> 33:13.269
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, again, as a part of that vow, and maybe even, you know, the pendulum swings too far sometimes, right?

33:14.090 --> 33:19.555
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I didn't get much from my dad over here, so I'm going to swing whale there and compensate for it.

33:21.197 --> 33:27.062
[SPEAKER_02]: So there was a real commitment in me to be vulnerable with

33:27.413 --> 33:38.704
[SPEAKER_02]: And I just for some reason, I really wasn't worried about that not coming off as coming off as not masculine.

33:39.324 --> 33:39.584
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

33:40.145 --> 33:57.201
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, my kids see me do everything, they see me work a lot, they see me, you know, doing the physical stuff, they see me in the gym, you know, you know, so I just felt

33:57.721 --> 33:58.662
[SPEAKER_02]: great.

33:58.742 --> 34:02.828
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I still got issues on a regular basis.

34:03.569 --> 34:04.249
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't we?

34:04.309 --> 34:04.550
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

34:04.570 --> 34:04.990
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

34:05.551 --> 34:05.651
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

34:06.332 --> 34:14.643
[SPEAKER_02]: And what, you know, I've really tried to be blunt and honest with them about this things I struggle with the things I'm proud of.

34:14.703 --> 34:23.234
[SPEAKER_02]: The, the bends that I have that might not have been great for them when they were little kids and I've encouraged them as adults.

34:23.294 --> 34:24.876
[SPEAKER_02]: You can come to me anytime.

34:25.261 --> 34:28.987
[SPEAKER_02]: and share your hurts, share where you think I did something wrong.

34:29.788 --> 34:33.314
[SPEAKER_02]: And I will listen and I will own it if I had a part in it.

34:35.297 --> 34:41.506
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I want that closest with them and I don't think I got it even close to perfect.

34:41.526 --> 34:44.611
[SPEAKER_02]: So I just don't want them to feel uncomfortable.

34:44.671 --> 34:48.417
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to bring them something that's uncomfortable for dad or mom or.

34:48.734 --> 35:07.587
[SPEAKER_02]: And we've both been about that forever just realizing how flawed we are and how that may have impacted our kids and the fact that we might not even have a perception of how that could have negatively impacted them and invited them to come and have those conversations with us at any time.

35:08.022 --> 35:10.666
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, right, right, I don't remember what your question was.

35:10.746 --> 35:13.630
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if I got up on a weird tangent.

35:13.650 --> 35:14.772
[SPEAKER_02]: What's your question?

35:14.952 --> 35:16.074
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

35:16.094 --> 35:23.825
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, first of all, you must remember and don't ever forget that the city of Tangentville is one of which I am there.

35:23.865 --> 35:25.487
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's okay, right?

35:25.667 --> 35:26.689
[SPEAKER_00]: So who am I to judge?

35:27.350 --> 35:28.492
[SPEAKER_00]: But it was all connected.

35:28.512 --> 35:36.443
[SPEAKER_00]: And because I'm the mayor of Tangentville, it's very often that I will see a connection between those, between things anyway.

35:36.912 --> 35:44.311
[SPEAKER_00]: in an attempt to be as broad as possible because you always want to raise our consciousness and think about other people's shoes and perspectives.

35:44.331 --> 35:51.951
[SPEAKER_00]: You and I have that conversations about the reality of what it means to be

35:52.673 --> 36:02.768
[SPEAKER_00]: a black man in America and right now that carries a little more weight, relevance, and all those things than ever before.

36:02.788 --> 36:07.795
[SPEAKER_00]: And so those are things that will explore as time goes on.

36:08.636 --> 36:11.380
[SPEAKER_00]: And I like to kind of dive into that.

36:12.181 --> 36:18.951
[SPEAKER_00]: And I will say, would you and I share, which is, you know, as a black man in America,

36:19.657 --> 36:28.247
[SPEAKER_00]: have never had, I've had one encounter with police where I was pulled over for a questionable reason.

36:31.351 --> 36:38.059
[SPEAKER_00]: The officer was not, was a rude, but there wasn't any real obvious reason to pull me and my friend over.

36:40.001 --> 36:49.613
[SPEAKER_00]: We were in, we were in a BMW and he pulled us over and when we asked

36:49.897 --> 36:50.998
[SPEAKER_00]: because he didn't give us a ticket.

36:51.759 --> 37:01.146
[SPEAKER_00]: He said that the reason why was because my friend, he was from my friend's car, he had a pine cone in the window, you know, in the river you mirror.

37:01.847 --> 37:06.010
[SPEAKER_00]: Not pine car air freshener, yeah, air freshener, the pine tree air freshener.

37:06.030 --> 37:13.297
[SPEAKER_00]: Now because if that's the case, you pull somebody over and you come over to the car, you tell them that, tell me, you should probably take it down unless you get a ticket, none of that came up.

37:13.417 --> 37:16.539
[SPEAKER_00]: It only came up in response to the questions we had to ask to be told that.

37:17.040 --> 37:19.802
[SPEAKER_00]: Other than that, I haven't had,

37:20.069 --> 37:28.622
[SPEAKER_00]: any negative interaction with police at all, yet I am aware as a black man in America that that could change in any given time.

37:29.163 --> 37:37.636
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that people, you know, sometimes have a chip on their shoulder or they're naive as to what it is that's taking place.

37:38.318 --> 37:47.612
[SPEAKER_00]: And I had a conversation once with someone that had a podcast that was geared towards the experience as a parent to a child

37:48.757 --> 37:59.068
[SPEAKER_00]: From a black perspective and I remember thinking I'm not sure how different that might be and that's based on my experience And they told me that they lived in Florida.

37:59.088 --> 37:59.909
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm right away.

37:59.929 --> 38:00.129
[SPEAKER_00]: I went.

38:00.349 --> 38:08.378
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, okay, and it was at a time when Elijah was He might have been a teenager, but he wasn't going anywhere in his own.

38:08.398 --> 38:13.043
[SPEAKER_00]: So he wasn't gonna get pulled over nothing like that happened Then I started thinking about

38:14.153 --> 38:24.185
[SPEAKER_00]: even with racing move from the equation when an officer encounters one on the spectrum or the disability is if they're not familiar with it, they don't necessarily know how to handle that.

38:24.586 --> 38:35.058
[SPEAKER_00]: But then you add to that situation, not just color, but a young man of color, then that could go in a whole bunch of different ways.

38:35.599 --> 38:38.062
[SPEAKER_00]: And so my experience is sort of the same thing.

38:38.162 --> 38:42.928
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know what kind of experience I've had

38:43.010 --> 38:49.958
[SPEAKER_00]: being a caregiver or a leisure's autism, that is specific to being black in America.

38:50.920 --> 38:54.264
[SPEAKER_00]: But I'm also well aware that that could change in then he given day.

38:55.245 --> 39:03.274
[SPEAKER_00]: And because of that vigilance and awareness is high or awareness needs to be high.

39:03.795 --> 39:12.105
[SPEAKER_00]: And then that just goes back to again, being more curious than judgment or we need to be aware of other people's situations, you know, all the time.

39:12.608 --> 39:13.630
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a concern.

39:13.791 --> 39:15.194
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's a legitimate concern.

39:16.316 --> 39:17.038
[SPEAKER_02]: We were talking early.

39:17.058 --> 39:21.308
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't recall, but there was an incident in my life when I was a young black man.

39:21.328 --> 39:29.065
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm an old black man now when I was a black man and actually a neighbor.

39:29.467 --> 39:32.172
[SPEAKER_02]: kept parking her car in front of my driveway.

39:32.192 --> 39:36.440
[SPEAKER_02]: So I couldn't back out of my garage and drive way like blocking the driveway.

39:36.460 --> 39:37.902
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, yeah, blocking it.

39:37.982 --> 39:39.345
[SPEAKER_02]: So who does that?

39:39.966 --> 39:41.008
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, people are rude.

39:41.809 --> 39:44.234
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, just in their mind, it makes sense somehow, right?

39:44.775 --> 39:49.644
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, after kind of repeatedly asking over some time, could you not do that?

39:50.164 --> 39:51.467
[SPEAKER_02]: We call the cops, right?

39:51.567 --> 39:53.230
[SPEAKER_02]: And so the police came.

39:53.935 --> 40:23.520
[SPEAKER_02]: And she was out there and what I tell you is the officer came right to me like I was the problem like we had called the police right and so he was automatically in my face about Because you know young white girl young black man who's the problem here right and so it was a interaction where

40:24.158 --> 40:25.920
[SPEAKER_02]: This is my garage and driveway.

40:26.421 --> 40:27.902
[SPEAKER_02]: She keeps parking and blocking it.

40:28.243 --> 40:29.324
[SPEAKER_02]: How am I the problem?

40:30.305 --> 40:33.629
[SPEAKER_02]: And in the midst of that, I'll be honest.

40:34.850 --> 40:39.896
[SPEAKER_02]: I spit because I have, you know, not at him, I was just spitting on the ground cause I had some congestion.

40:40.277 --> 40:43.700
[SPEAKER_02]: And he goes, you know, I can write a ticket for you for that, for expecting and public.

40:43.720 --> 40:49.407
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, whoa, so it was clear to me,

40:50.197 --> 40:55.746
[SPEAKER_02]: when he jumped out the car, who was in the wrong here before even understood the situation.

40:55.766 --> 40:58.190
[SPEAKER_02]: So I hadn't thought about that in a long time, but yes.

40:58.370 --> 41:05.962
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm trying to resist the earth to go down the rabbit hole because it's a little off topic, but my curiosity is literally eating my skin.

41:07.264 --> 41:09.447
[SPEAKER_00]: What is it like?

41:10.309 --> 41:12.071
[SPEAKER_00]: What did he say when he got out?

41:12.091 --> 41:13.454
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it's your driveway.

41:13.914 --> 41:17.520
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not like he got out and thought that you were blocking your hers, what did he say?

41:17.585 --> 41:21.291
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, you know, I can't remember the details, it's just too long.

41:21.471 --> 41:40.160
[SPEAKER_02]: I have Swiss cheese memory, but, um, I luckily my wife, then my girlfriend was there, and she was able to kind of, you kind of stop him and say, look, we called you because this is our garage and driveway, and her keeps blocking it with her car.

41:40.561 --> 41:43.305
[SPEAKER_02]: So the problem is her, not more Reese.

41:43.606 --> 41:46.809
[SPEAKER_02]: And like I said, in the midst of that, I had some congestion.

41:46.849 --> 41:49.812
[SPEAKER_02]: I turned into a spit and he jumped out like I didn't give it a ticket for that.

41:49.873 --> 41:56.960
[SPEAKER_02]: And he was like, okay, you know, so like, look, you need to understand what the deal is here.

41:57.080 --> 41:57.701
[SPEAKER_02]: We call to you.

41:58.221 --> 41:58.862
[SPEAKER_02]: She didn't call you.

41:59.062 --> 42:00.804
[SPEAKER_02]: We call to you because she's the problem.

42:01.325 --> 42:09.994
[SPEAKER_02]: And then finally, you know, he, he de-escalated from there and then explained to her why she can't block the driveway and we went on a visit.

42:10.014 --> 42:11.335
[SPEAKER_02]: But that was after.

42:11.618 --> 42:13.160
[SPEAKER_02]: it got really aggressive.

42:13.180 --> 42:20.890
[SPEAKER_02]: So I translate that to my son now and he doesn't have the ability to express himself.

42:21.931 --> 42:35.668
[SPEAKER_02]: And that really scares me because he gets in a stressful situation, you know, he might start stimming, he might start yelling because he does the quite notes going on and that that is a scary place for me that

42:36.172 --> 42:45.922
[SPEAKER_02]: If they don't understand that he has a disability and they perceive him as being aggressive, then where's it going to go from there?

42:45.942 --> 42:54.711
[SPEAKER_02]: So there is some, I think legitimate concern fear about that kind of a situation.

42:54.932 --> 43:02.820
[SPEAKER_02]: And like we said, there are videos that kind of show that where officers

43:03.155 --> 43:07.184
[SPEAKER_02]: and you know, take it to a level of aggression that was not called for.

43:07.244 --> 43:09.168
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's that is a concern I have.

43:09.930 --> 43:11.032
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I do it immediately, I think.

43:12.175 --> 43:13.618
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'd say that's probably my biggest one.

43:14.861 --> 43:18.970
[SPEAKER_00]: And you have to try and

43:19.962 --> 43:34.800
[SPEAKER_00]: grow any vault and always be working on yourself, you know, I used to until about a month ago, I would never let him walk off in a store like a wafer me or wafer us.

43:36.482 --> 43:40.367
[SPEAKER_00]: Now I don't mind it if I can see him.

43:40.347 --> 43:46.456
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, if I can't, I'm not good with that because I don't know.

43:46.516 --> 43:57.253
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm less worried about him than I am about the people he's going to enter, and it's funny.

43:57.413 --> 44:03.743
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, going back to the whole thing with police, and he never had a dangerous experience, but I know like a change in any moment.

44:04.264 --> 44:08.430
[SPEAKER_00]: The same is true of him and people, and this is kind of where it makes me feel that

44:11.296 --> 44:27.155
[SPEAKER_00]: It whenever I have a doubt as to whether or not there's more to life than this that we know and that there's more than that there's, you know, any lack of a supreme being around us or that's responsible for us being here.

44:27.756 --> 44:37.708
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll stop and think about in his 19 years, whenever he interacts with people and initiates it, there've been two or maybe three.

44:38.262 --> 44:48.660
[SPEAKER_00]: negative experiences and the negativity is usually because what he'll usually do is he'll want to meet people, but he does so in a very aggressive manner and he doesn't introduce himself who will.

44:48.742 --> 44:52.206
[SPEAKER_00]: He used to go, who your first name, first name, middle name and last name.

44:52.246 --> 44:55.471
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna like stop pointing and ask them.

44:56.191 --> 45:02.540
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, what you say is, hello, my name is, and we'll just, they're like, Elijah, what's yours?

45:02.800 --> 45:05.023
[SPEAKER_00]: Like he just wants to get past his part and get to them.

45:06.044 --> 45:14.715
[SPEAKER_00]: And usually, especially if they have a name tag on it, he says the name, people like the son of the name, they warm to it and everything, but I used to really, really struggle with it when they'd be like,

45:14.948 --> 45:33.241
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't answer you I just like what do you want and I feel like he's trying to meet you try to be you know like like you so let's devil what is wrong with you That's that's usually my thought there was a couple weeks ago There was a lady and of course she's doing that happened.

45:33.281 --> 45:37.429
[SPEAKER_00]: She was checking aside of the register and he asked her a name she was like

45:39.130 --> 45:46.521
[SPEAKER_00]: Forget me, I don't know what the nobody, no ethnicity is offended by this, but she had like an Eastern European accident.

45:46.541 --> 45:49.646
[SPEAKER_00]: So because she was like, why gave up to know my name?

45:49.706 --> 45:49.907
[SPEAKER_00]: What?

45:49.927 --> 45:50.988
[SPEAKER_00]: Why do you need my name?

45:51.028 --> 45:51.489
[SPEAKER_00]: What?

45:51.509 --> 45:52.651
[SPEAKER_00]: What is my name to you?

45:53.352 --> 45:56.517
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like he's trying to meet you, because I had he's given you the time of day.

45:57.118 --> 46:00.683
[SPEAKER_00]: And when you finish, go to Costco, go to a heart section and buy a big box, get three.

46:03.688 --> 46:03.788
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.

46:03.768 --> 46:06.352
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's a tough balance.

46:06.412 --> 46:09.016
[SPEAKER_00]: I just couldn't understand why that was like a real problem.

46:09.096 --> 46:17.629
[SPEAKER_00]: But also, in one instance, where we were in Target, and as he was trying to introduce himself to this guy, I could tell he was clearly on this spectrum.

46:17.689 --> 46:23.537
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't ask him, but as he was asking the guy, the guy's like, I have to focus on the register, right?

46:23.898 --> 46:25.641
[SPEAKER_00]: I have customers, I can't talk to you.

46:25.661 --> 46:26.742
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't give you my name.

46:26.782 --> 46:28.645
[SPEAKER_00]: And I didn't

46:29.587 --> 46:30.749
[SPEAKER_00]: think he was being rooted all.

46:31.571 --> 46:41.210
[SPEAKER_00]: I felt like he was almost afraid that he went mess up the order or not give the customer or the client the attention that they needed.

46:42.252 --> 46:48.304
[SPEAKER_00]: And he told me he was on the spectrum without me asking by his response when I said to him,

46:48.908 --> 46:49.529
[SPEAKER_00]: It's okay.

46:49.889 --> 46:53.214
[SPEAKER_00]: My son is just introducing himself to you because he's on the autism spectrum.

46:53.695 --> 46:56.699
[SPEAKER_00]: That's one of the things that he does in the manner which he communicates.

46:57.160 --> 47:02.788
[SPEAKER_00]: And the way he said, oh, oh, you know, you seem relieved.

47:02.808 --> 47:12.041
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, I have one instance where that took place and I explained it to the person in their response was really, I am, too, you know.

47:12.242 --> 47:16.047
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, one time, because what he'll do, I think we talked about this.

47:16.364 --> 47:20.720
[SPEAKER_00]: He's, whenever you go out to any retail place he has to use about him.

47:21.624 --> 47:27.205
[SPEAKER_00]: He will biologically use about him, and usually a one and never two.

47:27.225 --> 47:27.606
[SPEAKER_00]: But.

47:29.172 --> 47:52.716
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if he stores it up or what but he'll we'll go to one place if we go to two stores he's going to go to the bathroom every single store right and he can tell you the brand and how many flushes per gallon and he'll wash his hands and do the whole nine yards and needs to use hand sanitizer in every public place that there is and so we have to go to one of those restrooms in the store that had a code.

47:53.185 --> 47:56.853
[SPEAKER_00]: So for some reason, I found myself explaining to the guy that, oh, you know what it was?

47:57.435 --> 48:01.263
[SPEAKER_00]: In this particular store, oh, it was an Amazon fresh.

48:01.704 --> 48:08.359
[SPEAKER_00]: And in that store, I guess maybe to make sure they have control, things, they don't give the code out.

48:08.997 --> 48:11.482
[SPEAKER_00]: What they do is they'll come to the door and punch it in.

48:12.163 --> 48:15.249
[SPEAKER_00]: And for Elijah, that was like, whoa, hold on, we're in a minute, man.

48:15.549 --> 48:17.192
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm the one that pushes a button to the other.

48:17.212 --> 48:19.897
[SPEAKER_00]: Elijah will do it, I'm like, no, you can't, they can't give you the code.

48:19.998 --> 48:21.761
[SPEAKER_00]: And he was like, he couldn't figure out why.

48:22.342 --> 48:22.562
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

48:22.582 --> 48:26.229
[SPEAKER_00]: When he was okay with it eventually, when he went in, he used to use in the bathroom.

48:26.790 --> 48:29.555
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm explaining to the guy why the code is so important to him.

48:29.716 --> 48:32.541
[SPEAKER_00]: To the average person, all that matters is they get to go in and use the bathroom.

48:32.943 --> 48:39.876
[SPEAKER_00]: What I told the guy why the code is important he goes oh really I'm on the spectrum too I totally get it.

48:39.936 --> 48:46.108
[SPEAKER_00]: I used to be the same way and we had this whole conversation what I really wanted to get into with him was

48:46.257 --> 48:47.578
[SPEAKER_00]: how we transition into work.

48:47.598 --> 48:55.907
[SPEAKER_00]: Because we talked about going from being the architect to then transitioning to just the observer or consultant.

48:55.927 --> 49:00.752
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, architecture and consultant continue to melden blur for our kids.

49:01.332 --> 49:09.701
[SPEAKER_00]: Because we don't know what level of independence they're going to have to then go into, which we'll cover on another episode, which I will from both the emotional and financial piece.

49:10.141 --> 49:10.982
[SPEAKER_00]: But

49:10.962 --> 49:15.216
[SPEAKER_00]: planning for emotionally and financially that time when we exist in memory only.

49:15.818 --> 49:21.717
[SPEAKER_00]: But one of those things that allows them to thrive is what kind of work they might be able to do and I wanted to ask him about that.

49:21.777 --> 49:23.723
[SPEAKER_00]: Those are things that we'll touch on.

49:24.732 --> 49:27.815
[SPEAKER_00]: also in, you know, in, in, in future episodes.

49:28.316 --> 49:49.137
[SPEAKER_00]: But um, um, I don't know, you said something the other day where you were talking about it being this wonderful scary, just any and every adjective you can think of in terms of the right and just much like anything else going back to the whole Einstein thing of solving a problem at the level of consciousness at which it occurs.

49:50.635 --> 50:09.927
[SPEAKER_00]: the same is true really of life or so busy living it we don't really stop and think about where we are what we do and when you think about it it's kind of it really is amazing on so many different levels and I think one of the questions that's worth asking is let me ask you this and I'll let you go first because I don't know the answer

50:11.290 --> 50:16.797
[SPEAKER_00]: We talked before about if there was a cure for autism, a button you push or a pill, would you give it to your child?

50:16.817 --> 50:24.387
[SPEAKER_00]: And we talked about, you know, you know what you would gain in terms of verbal communication and everything, whether this is fear of how much of them would you lose.

50:24.908 --> 50:34.980
[SPEAKER_00]: So let me ask you, where do you think you would be or what life would be like without autism?

50:36.182 --> 50:36.943
[SPEAKER_00]: And have you thought of that?

50:39.640 --> 50:45.565
[SPEAKER_02]: Of course, I thought about it, you know, there are dreams that we all hold for our kids, right?

50:46.926 --> 51:07.825
[SPEAKER_02]: And they can manifest it, whatever way that works out, but careers and marriages and hopefully grandkids and all those things then, and I think they're just what we all hope for for our kids that they have a good life, right?

51:08.210 --> 51:20.207
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think one of the, on the last episode for me, I talked about some of the things I think I would lose with that, because very fortunately Isaac is a very affectionate child, you know, young man.

51:20.768 --> 51:22.991
[SPEAKER_02]: And it gives me hugs and kisses every day, right?

51:23.232 --> 51:27.478
[SPEAKER_02]: And that is, and there's just our closeness.

51:27.758 --> 51:31.023
[SPEAKER_02]: He, you know, like we hook arms and walk through the store, we're close to each other.

51:31.043 --> 51:32.665
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, we're my,

51:33.083 --> 51:35.325
[SPEAKER_02]: 25-year-old son, oh god, for good, never do that.

51:37.227 --> 51:40.390
[SPEAKER_02]: He's very, he acknowledges that he with me in the store, right?

51:40.470 --> 51:45.536
[SPEAKER_02]: So, there are those things that would get lost, right?

51:45.776 --> 51:48.659
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, where I took it up to be my side.

51:48.859 --> 51:50.220
[SPEAKER_00]: How many tellin' you said that?

51:50.240 --> 51:50.761
[SPEAKER_02]: That's right.

51:51.221 --> 51:51.682
[SPEAKER_02]: It's true.

51:52.222 --> 51:55.346
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, where I said, hey, you wanna be my sidekick and go do errands?

51:55.386 --> 51:55.646
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

51:56.186 --> 51:58.048
[SPEAKER_02]: Any of my other kids, nah, I'm good, right?

51:58.128 --> 52:02.753
[SPEAKER_02]: So, all of that would get lost, and that would be a sad thing.

52:03.172 --> 52:23.391
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'd say for me, you know, even looking at the American dream to me, it's just right with lies and stress and pushing people into a lifestyle that's not really even good for their souls or their spirits.

52:23.451 --> 52:27.034
[SPEAKER_02]: So I am very grateful for where I am.

52:27.495 --> 52:30.057
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think I would push that button.

52:31.876 --> 52:33.598
[SPEAKER_02]: I will push that button for him, not for me.

52:34.178 --> 52:43.007
[SPEAKER_02]: If I thought that was going to give him a more fulfilling life, but not for me, because we would make my life easier because I think I'm in the life I'm meant to be in.

52:43.287 --> 52:50.534
[SPEAKER_02]: And we've taken the steps of their peace and that we can to try and bring him to the fullest expression and who he can be.

52:50.574 --> 52:52.336
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm good with that.

52:52.837 --> 52:56.200
[SPEAKER_02]: And if that means he's under my care for the rest of his life, that's okay.

52:56.840 --> 53:01.545
[SPEAKER_02]: If at some point in time, he gains enough capability

53:02.183 --> 53:05.970
[SPEAKER_02]: So, I guess that's the short response.

53:06.812 --> 53:10.920
[SPEAKER_02]: Unfortunately, I have, I got a hard stop, bro.

53:11.761 --> 53:12.302
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

53:12.322 --> 53:13.985
[SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah.

53:14.787 --> 53:19.636
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, with everyone, to everyone within the sound of my voice, thank you so very much.

53:20.958 --> 53:22.842
[SPEAKER_00]: You can go ahead and, um,

53:23.378 --> 53:31.274
[SPEAKER_00]: Make sure that you use the link for Billy Footwear to get your discount and we will see you on the next episode.

53:31.534 --> 53:35.101
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so very much for being childlike and let's childish.

53:35.121 --> 53:37.506
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for joining us on Beyond The Spectrum.